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post #61 of 215 Old 09-18-2017, 09:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandis View Post
Nope. It doesn't. The only upgrade path from the best plasmas as far as black level is OLED..
Are you sure about that
I don't see any numbers for the ZT...but my understanding was that some Kuro's were even still darker than the Panasonics were...
Some tests of the Sony Z9 and the ZT versus the Kuro
http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/kd65zd9-201610164372.htm
http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/zt65-...1305283044.htm
IMO...there is a lot more to it than black level..past a close point
It would be an easy choice to choose the Z9D over a Panasonic ZT in today's world

In fact..in my situation...with a lit room...the Z9D would be my choice of Tv if I were going to buy again today
Coming from the F8500 to the KS9800 made me realize how much I was losing because of room light and how much better..IMO..the brightness capability of the panel does for watching sports




Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandis View Post
It should outperform it, as its MSRP was 3x as much. I don't know anything about the pricing or availability of those sets but I'd say that, if you could get a KS9800 under $2k, that it would be an excellent option, and goes to my point that there's no way someone is going to pay $1k+ for a 4-8 year old plasma..
I think the MSRPs of the 65" were $1999 for the Vizio P series and $3499 for the Samsung KS9800
And yes you can still get a KS9800 for about the price you mentioned and one for WAY less than that with a price protection credit card claim using one of the scam sites...



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post #62 of 215 Old 09-18-2017, 09:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turnne1 View Post
Are you sure about that
I don't see any numbers for the ZT...but my understanding was that some Kuro's were even still darker than the Panasonics were...
Some tests of the Sony Z9 and the ZT versus the Kuro
http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/kd65zd9-201610164372.htm
http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/zt65-...1305283044.htm
IMO...there is a lot more to it than black level..past a close point
It would be an easy choice to choose the Z9D over a Panasonic ZT in today's world

In fact..in my situation...with a lit room...the Z9D would be my choice of Tv if I were going to buy again today
Coming from the F8500 to the KS9800 made me realize how much I was losing because of room light and how much better..IMO..the brightness capability of the panel does for watching sports
Here are some numbers from your source:

Sony Z9D: 0.029 cd/m2 with optimised [Auto Local Dimming]
Samsung PN64H5000: 0.0056 cd/m2
Panasonic VT60: 0.0039 cd/m2
Pioneer PDP-LX5090: 0.0031 cd/m2
Just for fun, budget 2011 plasma I got on CL, the Panasonic S30: 0.02 cd/m2

I wouldn't get the Z9D myself. Too expensive for the performance. I'd rather have a Samsung 64F8500 or ZT/VT60. Particularly because, as a gamer, the Z9D's input lag and messing pixel transitions would be a major distraction.

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Originally Posted by turnne1 View Post
I think the MSRPs of the 65" were $1999 for the Vizio P series and $3499 for the Samsung KS9800
And yes you can still get a KS9800 for about the price you mentioned and one for WAY less than that with a price protection credit card claim using one of the scam sites...



Warren
Original MSRP on the KS9800 was $4499. Over 2x as much, not 3x, sorry. But yeah, at under $2k, the 9800 is a pretty good deal. I'd step up to OLED myself but that's not a bad price, at all.

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post #63 of 215 Old 09-18-2017, 09:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandis View Post
Here are some numbers from your source:

Sony Z9D: 0.029 cd/m2 with optimised [Auto Local Dimming]
Samsung PN64H5000: 0.0056 cd/m2
Panasonic VT60: 0.0039 cd/m2
Pioneer PDP-LX5090: 0.0031 cd/m2
Just for fun, budget 2011 plasma I got on CL, the Panasonic 42S30: 0.02 cd/m2

I wouldn't get the Z9D myself. Too expensive for the performance. I'd rather have a Samsung 64F8500 or ZT/VT60. Particularly because, as a gamer, the Z9D's input lag and messing pixel transitions would be a major distraction.



Original MSRP on the KS9800 was $4499. Over 2x as much, not 3x, sorry. But yeah, at under $2k, the 9800 is a pretty good deal. I'd step up to OLED myself but that's not a bad price, at all.
Well..I guess based on that owner's should hold onto their Pioneer Kuros..
Though as I said before...there is a lot more to the story than just black level and considering different viewer/owner scenarios and needs

Talking about old Panasonics..
I bought closeout open box 60ST60 for $424 from Sears in May of 2014 and have never used it..other than to just connect and check its full complete functionality
Based on your figures it should have a great black level
Perhaps I should sell it. At this point I don't think its ever going to get used

My Best Buy receipt says the Samsung 65KS9800 had an original MSRP of $3499....though its a moot point since street price is what matters and I paid less than $2K

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post #64 of 215 Old 09-18-2017, 07:13 PM
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Originally Posted by impreza276 View Post
You're probably not going to get the best prices at Best Buy. Mine is from Amazon
yeah, but there's only like 3 retailers in the province now... there's the odd mom and pop store, but there's no way to know what their prices are without going in and negotiating.

tv's are one item i wouldn't buy online, not until there's a 0% return rate. i'm too picky about uniformity, so i really need that 'no hassle return' window. but just for fun: http://www.amazon.ca/LG-Electronics...rds=lg+oled+65

still almost 4grand...

these guys are usually my go to, because they price beat pretty much any canadian retailer, but lately they've been matching the lowest prices so you can't do that anymore. they used to do a 25% price beat!
http://www.memoryexpress.com/Products/MX65868
they are still 4grand, claiming 2grand off!

granted, i don't know if these are sales, or 'sales'. there's a 1000bux difference between claimed MSRP's so that's a bit of a red flag all by itself. i'll be happy if a 65inch b-series is under 3grand by the time my f8500 kicks the bucket
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post #65 of 215 Old 09-18-2017, 07:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turnne1 View Post
Well..I guess based on that owner's should hold onto their Pioneer Kuros..
Though as I said before...there is a lot more to the story than just black level and considering different viewer/owner scenarios and needs
this is true

but...

on a strictly personal note, my enjoyment of tv's i've owned is perfectly predicted by the MLL and uniformity of it's blacks. not that having a bright picture isn't important, but that for me, every display i've ever seen has been bright enough. so some people every display is black enough, and that's fair too. i can see both sides, but i definitely understand the need for great blacks a little more.

i wouldn't say it's about what is most important to picture quality, but what is most noticeable to the viewer. i notice 'grey blacks' and clouding a lot more than i notice motion, or lack of brightness
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post #66 of 215 Old 09-19-2017, 05:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post
this is true

but...

on a strictly personal note, my enjoyment of tv's i've owned is perfectly predicted by the MLL and uniformity of it's blacks. not that having a bright picture isn't important, but that for me, every display i've ever seen has been bright enough. so some people every display is black enough, and that's fair too. i can see both sides, but i definitely understand the need for great blacks a little more.

i wouldn't say it's about what is most important to picture quality, but what is most noticeable to the viewer. i notice 'grey blacks' and clouding a lot more than i notice motion, or lack of brightness
I watch TV more than half the time in a room with windows and I also watch quite a bit of sports
IMO...a bright LCD wins in those areas

This coming from a long time plasma( many panels) owner

I had a 64F8500 for a few years as my main display and it has been replaced by the KS9800
For me this was the difference in watching programming that wasn't washed out in the daylight

I bought the F8500 over the ZT60( I could have bought them for the same price) because of my situation with room windows and I knew the F8500 would get much brighter
Even then there were days that I struggled in daytime viewing with the F8500

Well..needless to say I have no more washed out daytime TV watching issues after the purchase of the KS9800

Recently,I spent about 40 mins at a magnolia comparing a Sony Z9D and an A1E with the same programming in the light controlled area...adjusting controls etc
First off...I could be happy with either TV
But the brightness and sharpness of the Z9D would make it the winner for me because of my situation
One of the demo shorts was a bowl of fruit on a table. With the Z9D I felt like I could see every crevice in the orange peel and I was perfectly fine with the black level. The A1E was very good and ofcourse blacks were unreal but it didn't have the extreme sharpness of picture detail like the Z9D
Needless to say due to the brightness the Z9D can hit over a sustained period/screen area the HDR performance was over the top

When they make an OLED that will hit 1000+nits( over a sustained time period over a major portion of the screen) and have a sharper picture I think I am in

Because those viewing angles of the LCD are not pretty and trust me I struggle with that

Though you have to choose what best works for your situation

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post #67 of 215 Old 09-19-2017, 06:18 AM
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Plasma Sellers - Let's talk..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandis View Post
It's very difficult to say. I don't know that I've ever seen one of those in person. I think that was the year Hitachi switched to Panasonic 1080p glass rather than their own ALiS one? I'd say about the same as a 50" Panasonic from 2008, so maybe $150? Hitachi had better processing but they have a reputation for being unreliable. This year's blacks were much better but not Kuro-black.


Unreliable? This thing has been rock solid since the day I bought it nine years ago. Contrast that to my fathers LG plasma which died within three years.


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post #68 of 215 Old 09-19-2017, 06:42 PM
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Thread sum up from my perspective: Buy a used 65VT60/65ZT60 if you don't have the scratch for an OLED. But don't pay anymore than $1000(Good luck. Owners want more). If you do pay more than that don't worry. Best Plasma of all time. For LCD's, I guess one can make an exception if you've got a bright room but OLED puts out plenty of nits for a bright room. Don't forget about the Kuro's. I'm watching one right now and the legend is real.
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post #69 of 215 Old 09-19-2017, 07:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turnne1 View Post
I watch TV more than half the time in a room with windows and I also watch quite a bit of sports
IMO...a bright LCD wins in those areas

Though you have to choose what best works for your situation

Warren
you don't have to convince me, the death of plasma proved what most people like.

but i'm not watching with anybody else's eyes in anybody else's living room, so we'll stick to that last sentence

maybe when they make tv's bright enough to watch in direct sunlight i'll change my mind. but for now, all tv's are bright enough for 'lights on' viewing, and none of them are bright enough for 'sunlight' viewing, for me. so either way the blinds are closed. but at least with good blacks/uniformity i don't HAVE to turn on the lights if i don't want to

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post #70 of 215 Old 09-19-2017, 11:33 PM
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Wink

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Originally Posted by DRC72 View Post
Unreliable? This thing has been rock solid since the day I bought it nine years ago. Contrast that to my fathers LG plasma which died within three years.


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I'm just saying, general perception here was that they were less reliable. Of course we get more "my TV is broken" posts than "my TV is running fine after years" ones.

For what it's worth, I have a ten year old Hitachi plasma that works perfectly; bought it off Craigslist a few months back. So they can last for years.

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post #71 of 215 Old 09-20-2017, 05:00 AM
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Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post
you don't have to convince me, the death of plasma proved what most people like.

but i'm not watching with anybody else's eyes in anybody else's living room, so we'll stick to that last sentence

maybe when they make tv's bright enough to watch in direct sunlight i'll change my mind. but for now, all tv's are bright enough for 'lights on' viewing, and none of them are bright enough for 'sunlight' viewing, for me. so either way the blinds are closed. but at least with good blacks/uniformity i don't HAVE to turn on the lights if i don't want to
LOL..trust me
I have decided what I need
Its a Tv that is a hybrid of the Sony Z9D and A1E with the best of what both TV's have to offer

I want brightness,black levels,sharpness,top notch picture processing and viewing angles

Simple as that....

Warren

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post #72 of 215 Old 09-20-2017, 05:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Test Ickles View Post
Thread sum up from my perspective: Buy a used 65VT60/65ZT60 if you don't have the scratch for an OLED. But don't pay anymore than $1000(Good luck. Owners want more)..
The rapid fall in price of OLED..in my mind...is putting coffin nails in the used plasma market
With 65" OLED going for 2K...with factory warranty...4K and HDR etc at even $1000 a used plasma is hard sell

And for that it better be a ZT60..65"
It took me three months to sell my Samsung 64F8500 and I started at $1000 and took $850..and mine still had a few months of extended warranty left on it
I got SEVERAL( perhaps even a dozen) offers at between $400-500
I finally found that buyer who had a 60" that had died and he was a 3 hour drive away
Perhaps I am wrong but I don't think these guys are getting their asking prices on these used plasma Tv's

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandis View Post
I'm just saying, general perception here was that they were less reliable. Of course we get more "my TV is broken" posts than "my TV is running fine after years" ones.

For what it's worth, I have a ten year old Hitachi plasma that works perfectly; bought it off Craigslist a few months back. So they can last for years.
Generally speaking I think Plasma has been statistically shown to be less reliable than LCD
But as you note...things vary
In my ownership of plasma vs LCD the plasma have definitely been less reliable...and this is Samsung branded products I might add
Samsung outright replaced my D8000 with an E8000 plasma
They also replaced the panel on my F8500 under warranty

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post #73 of 215 Old 09-20-2017, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by turnne1 View Post

Generally speaking I think Plasma has been statistically shown to be less reliable than LCD
But as you note...things vary
In my ownership of plasma vs LCD the plasma have definitely been less reliable...and this is Samsung branded products I might add
Samsung outright replaced my D8000 with an E8000 plasma
They also replaced the panel on my F8500 under warranty

Warren
Can't use Samsung to generalize Plasma reliability. They are the most unreliable of all Plasma's. Here's the leader board from my thread showing all time documented hrs. Samsung hardly participates. Panasonics and Pioneers can go a long time. Remember too that some models are plagued more than others by a common condition. Samsung 8500 with it's power supply issue for example but in most cases these common issues can be fixed at home by the owner.

Leader board:
Panasonic
1st 43,384 by Treespider
2nd 29,308 by Test Ickles's Mom and Dad
3nd 27,278 by VA_DaveB
4rd 26,812 by 34-hfx-83
5th 26,409 by 727
6th 26,179 by CEAyuso
7th 25,847 by Mathesar's Dad
8th 23,278 by Randall Tronick

Pioneer
1st 39,345 by Xae
2nd 29,659 by Mathesar
3rd 21,628 by AV_mike
4th 20,178 by rcapprotti

Samsung
1st 27,277 by GPMAZ
2nd 17,266 by oom

LG
1st 18,821 by Decibull
2nd 8,114 by webhype

Fujitsu 19,050 by walter dark
Philips 22,000 by PhilipsPhanatic
NEC 8,486 by eyecatcher127
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post #74 of 215 Old 09-20-2017, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Test Ickles View Post
Can't use Samsung to generalize Plasma reliability. They are the most unreliable of all Plasma's. Here's the leader board from my thread showing all time documented hrs. Samsung hardly participates. Panasonics and Pioneers can go a long time. Remember too that some models are plagued more than others by a common condition. Samsung 8500 with it's power supply issue for example but in most cases these common issues can be fixed at home by the owner.

Leader board:
Panasonic
1st 43,384 by Treespider
2nd 29,308 by Test Ickles's Mom and Dad
3nd 27,278 by VA_DaveB
4rd 26,812 by 34-hfx-83
5th 26,409 by 727
6th 26,179 by CEAyuso
7th 25,847 by Mathesar's Dad
8th 23,278 by Randall Tronick

Pioneer
1st 39,345 by Xae
2nd 29,659 by Mathesar
3rd 21,628 by AV_mike
4th 20,178 by rcapprotti

Samsung
1st 27,277 by GPMAZ
2nd 17,266 by oom

LG
1st 18,821 by Decibull
2nd 8,114 by webhype

Fujitsu 19,050 by walter dark
Philips 22,000 by PhilipsPhanatic
NEC 8,486 by eyecatcher127
Understood

But my comment was that LCDs are generally more reliable than Plasmas


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post #75 of 215 Old 09-20-2017, 09:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turnne1 View Post
Understood

But my comment was that LCDs are generally more reliable than Plasmas


Warren
I'm not really sure on that. If you head over to a forum called badcaps and go to the TV section you will see more threads dedicated to LCD repair than Plasma.
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post #76 of 215 Old 09-20-2017, 09:27 AM
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I'm not really sure on that. If you head over to a forum called badcaps and go to the TV section you will see more threads dedicated to LCD repair than Plasma.
And they sold probably 20-30 times or more LCD than plasma..right?

Again this was a generalization based on what I have read on AVS over the years, my personal experience and the fact that I noted that extended service plans tended to be more expensive on Plasma Tv's than LCD's

Warren
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post #77 of 215 Old 09-20-2017, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by turnne1 View Post
And they sold probably 20-30 times or more LCD than plasma..right?

Again this was a generalization based on what I have read on AVS over the years, my personal experience and the fact that I noted that extended service plans tended to be more expensive on Plasma Tv's than LCD's

Warren
Fair enough. More LCD's more failures. Nobody can say for sure unfortunately what percentage of LCD's and Plasma's fail before a typical life span. Say 20,000 hrs.
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post #78 of 215 Old 09-20-2017, 02:42 PM
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i vaguely recall a discussion like this occurring years ago. when almost exactly the same way

guy A: plasma's are less reliable
guy B: more customer returns/repairs on lcd's
guy A: more lcd's sold
guy B: still doesn't make them more reliable...

then guy C comes in, who worked in a repair shop or claims center or something that at the time at least made me respect his comment. and he claimed that the % difference btw the two was pretty much insignificant. like 1-2%, and it wasn't even consistent across manufacturers. so if samsung had 2% higher failure rate on plasma's, LG had 1% higher on lcd's, and panny was 2% higher on lcd's, and the manufacturers who only produce lcd were mostly with 2% plus or minus as well.

i don't AT ALL remember the numbers, so i could be off. but i remember after reading it thinking that it was pointless to worry either way. there really wasn't any reason to think plasma or lcd were less reliable, any more than it's fair to think sony is more reliable than panasonic(or whatever two brands you want to pick). people always get that feeling, if they buy an LG and it dies, then lg is unreliable in their opinion. but when sampling a larger number of displays, the difference between the best and worst is really really small.

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post #79 of 215 Old 09-20-2017, 08:25 PM
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Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post
i vaguely recall a discussion like this occurring years ago. when almost exactly the same way

guy A: plasma's are less reliable
guy B: more customer returns/repairs on lcd's
guy A: more lcd's sold
guy B: still doesn't make them more reliable...

then guy C comes in, who worked in a repair shop or claims center or something that at the time at least made me respect his comment. and he claimed that the % difference btw the two was pretty much insignificant. like 1-2%, and it wasn't even consistent across manufacturers. so if samsung had 2% higher failure rate on plasma's, LG had 1% higher on lcd's, and panny was 2% higher on lcd's, and the manufacturers who only produce lcd were mostly with 2% plus or minus as well.

i don't AT ALL remember the numbers, so i could be off. but i remember after reading it thinking that it was pointless to worry either way. there really wasn't any reason to think plasma or lcd were less reliable, any more than it's fair to think sony is more reliable than panasonic(or whatever two brands you want to pick). people always get that feeling, if they buy an LG and it dies, then lg is unreliable in their opinion. but when sampling a larger number of displays, the difference between the best and worst is really really small.
Very good point. I agree neither technology is more prevalent to failure than the other. Both have relatively trouble free models and models that have a high failure rate for a common reason. I just googled "Panasonic TC-65vt60 issues problems failure" and I barely got a page worth. Then I did "Samsung F8500 issues problems failure" and I got several pages. Even has it's own issue thread on AVS Forum. The Panasonic TC-65VT60 and 65ZT60 are the best Plasma's ever made and so far they have been remarkably trouble free.
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post #80 of 215 Old 09-21-2017, 05:44 AM
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The rapid fall in price of OLED..in my mind...is putting coffin nails in the used plasma market

With 65" OLED going for 2K...with factory warranty...4K and HDR etc at even $1000 a used plasma is hard sell



And for that it better be a ZT60..65"

It took me three months to sell my Samsung 64F8500 and I started at $1000 and took $850..and mine still had a few months of extended warranty left on it

I got SEVERAL( perhaps even a dozen) offers at between $400-500

I finally found that buyer who had a 60" that had died and he was a 3 hour drive away

Perhaps I am wrong but I don't think these guys are getting their asking prices on these used plasma Tv's





Generally speaking I think Plasma has been statistically shown to be less reliable than LCD

But as you note...things vary

In my ownership of plasma vs LCD the plasma have definitely been less reliable...and this is Samsung branded products I might add

Samsung outright replaced my D8000 with an E8000 plasma

They also replaced the panel on my F8500 under warranty



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My plasma panel has outlasted a few CRTs that I’ve owned in years past. I’ve had one CRT die in the first year that I’ve owned it, and another within three years.


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post #81 of 215 Old 09-21-2017, 06:11 AM
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Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post
i vaguely recall a discussion like this occurring years ago. when almost exactly the same way

guy A: plasma's are less reliable
guy B: more customer returns/repairs on lcd's
guy A: more lcd's sold
guy B: still doesn't make them more reliable...

then guy C comes in, who worked in a repair shop or claims center or something that at the time at least made me respect his comment. and he claimed that the % difference btw the two was pretty much insignificant. like 1-2%, and it wasn't even consistent across manufacturers. so if samsung had 2% higher failure rate on plasma's, LG had 1% higher on lcd's, and panny was 2% higher on lcd's, and the manufacturers who only produce lcd were mostly with 2% plus or minus as well.

i don't AT ALL remember the numbers, so i could be off. but i remember after reading it thinking that it was pointless to worry either way. there really wasn't any reason to think plasma or lcd were less reliable, any more than it's fair to think sony is more reliable than panasonic(or whatever two brands you want to pick). people always get that feeling, if they buy an LG and it dies, then lg is unreliable in their opinion. but when sampling a larger number of displays, the difference between the best and worst is really really small.
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Originally Posted by Test Ickles View Post
Very good point. I agree neither technology is more prevalent to failure than the other. Both have relatively trouble free models and models that have a high failure rate for a common reason. I just googled "Panasonic TC-65vt60 issues problems failure" and I barely got a page worth. Then I did "Samsung F8500 issues problems failure" and I got several pages. Even has it's own issue thread on AVS Forum. The Panasonic TC-65VT60 and 65ZT60 are the best Plasma's ever made and so far they have been remarkably trouble free.
I will quote both of these posts since they have things in common to comment on
Without knowing how many were sold vs other brands and this could apply to Plasma vs LCD or Samsung plasma vs other brands
How do you know what is less or more reliable if you don't have the sales figures and can make a percentage of failure derived from that?
Just because something has its own thread how do you know it actually had a higher failure rate...without having the total sales number
I would suspect they sold a lot more Samsung F8500's than VT or ZTs...and I assume this because it was available for a lot longer period of time
As I mentioned earlier the LCDs have been more reliable than the plasmas in my ownership...and I have owned Panasonic and Samsung plasmas. I still own a few actually that are not being used right now.. Panasonic ST50..ST60.. Samsung E8000...and I recently sold the F8500 and replaced it with a Samsung KS9800

But getting back to the point of this thread.
I see these guys trying to sell used plasmas and many I see are unrealistic as I am sure they get the myriad of low ball offers I did on a regular basis when I was trying to sell the F8500
The fact that you cant ship the thing puts another coffin nail in opening up the field of buyers

The 1-2 punch is the rapid fall in price of OLED. I have seen 65" 4K OLED's for 2K and imagine if the prices keep falling which I assume they will
I recall the last better plasma sold for more( in many cases a lot more) than $2K
I certainly paid more than $2K for my 64F8500 and I got a great since I got in on the Conn's closeout deal


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My plasma panel has outlasted a few CRTs that I’ve owned in years past. I’ve had one CRT die in the first year that I’ve owned it, and another within three years.


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CRT huh?..lol
I cant speak personally for a HD CRT as I never owned one
I do have a buddy that has a Samsung HD CRT...he is not using it but I think it still works

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post #82 of 215 Old 09-21-2017, 06:36 AM - Thread Starter
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I cant speak personally for a HD CRT as I never owned one
I had to grudgingly let go of my 160 lb Sony 30" 1080p CRT which had one hdmi input. I loved the picture, but there was no use for it any more and I needed the space.
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post #83 of 215 Old 09-21-2017, 09:26 AM
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I have a ZT60 65" in Pittsburgh I'm considering selling. 1500 hours or so. Excellent condition. Where would you price it?


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post #84 of 215 Old 09-21-2017, 09:56 AM
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I have a ZT60 65" in Pittsburgh I'm considering selling. 1500 hours or so. Excellent condition. Where would you price it?


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No clue. But I saw today, on my local Craigslist, a guy selling a 65" ZT60 and asking $4000 CASH. He is certifiably insane.

Also, appraising your set may cross the line on this thread into a sales thread, and we can't do that. That may be a question better left for the for sale/want to buy sections.
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post #85 of 215 Old 09-21-2017, 04:13 PM
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Very good point. I agree neither technology is more prevalent to failure than the other. Both have relatively trouble free models and models that have a high failure rate for a common reason. I just googled "Panasonic TC-65vt60 issues problems failure" and I barely got a page worth. Then I did "Samsung F8500 issues problems failure" and I got several pages. Even has it's own issue thread on AVS Forum. The Panasonic TC-65VT60 and 65ZT60 are the best Plasma's ever made and so far they have been remarkably trouble free.
i always consider the owners too. not that they are automatically 'to blame' but it can't be a coincidence that some people have 4 or 5 tv's fail on them, while other's never do.

geographical location, typical use, even habits like how often you clean the house, or whether or not you smoke can all affect the reliability of electronics. on the other hand, you can sometimes have owners who are more discerning that make 'non-issues' into major issues(my f8500 menu freezes during calibration. this could be something that annoys the heck out of one user, and is never even noticed by another), or pay more attention to preventative maintenance like all the people who added their own fans to those panny's. it's pretty hard to get a 'fair' comparison from user reviews without reading between the lines

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post #86 of 215 Old 09-21-2017, 04:25 PM
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Originally Posted by turnne1 View Post
I will quote both of these posts since they have things in common to comment on
Without knowing how many were sold vs other brands and this could apply to Plasma vs LCD or Samsung plasma vs other brands
How do you know what is less or more reliable if you don't have the sales figures and can make a percentage of failure derived from that?
Just because something has its own thread how do you know it actually had a higher failure rate...without having the total sales number
I would suspect they sold a lot more Samsung F8500's than VT or ZTs...and I assume this because it was available for a lot longer period of time
As I mentioned earlier the LCDs have been more reliable than the plasmas in my ownership...and I have owned Panasonic and Samsung plasmas. I still own a few actually that are not being used right now.. Panasonic ST50..ST60.. Samsung E8000...and I recently sold the F8500 and replaced it with a Samsung KS9800
i wish i could remember the numbers/details, but the person who i was impressed by, quoted percentages, not absolute numbers. to me, it was solid since he wasn't talking about the 10 or 12 tv he has owned, but the 1000's that his store had sold. there was a small difference, and i feel like the lcd's may have been the 'more reliable' by the numbers. but what i took away was that difference between then was tiny, and there was more of a difference between 'good' brands and 'bad' brands than there was between types of displays

i can't really make any point with personal experience as i've only had one tv that 'failed' and i wouldn't say it was the least reliable. but rather it was the one that lasted longest because it had the best picture quality for it's time. it happened to be a rptv crt and i rode it out until the f8500. i've owned two plasmas, and a half dozen lcd's, and the only problems i've encountered have been some dead hdmi inputs on 'no-name' brand lcds(focus on the no-name, not the lcd part, as that's what is relevant).

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post #87 of 215 Old 09-21-2017, 06:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by turnne1 View Post
I will quote both of these posts since they have things in common to comment on
Without knowing how many were sold vs other brands and this could apply to Plasma vs LCD or Samsung plasma vs other brands
How do you know what is less or more reliable if you don't have the sales figures and can make a percentage of failure derived from that?
Just because something has its own thread how do you know it actually had a higher failure rate...without having the total sales number
I would suspect they sold a lot more Samsung F8500's than VT or ZTs...and I assume this because it was available for a lot longer period of time

Warren
I can easily say that a VT60 is more reliable than a Samsung 8500 regardless of how many they made. VT60's simply do not fail. I can only find a few examples while the 8500 is time bomb waiting for it's power supply to go out.
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post #88 of 215 Old 09-22-2017, 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by fierce_gt View Post
i wish i could remember the numbers/details, but the person who i was impressed by, quoted percentages, not absolute numbers. to me, it was solid since he wasn't talking about the 10 or 12 tv he has owned, but the 1000's that his store had sold. there was a small difference, and i feel like the lcd's may have been the 'more reliable' by the numbers. but what i took away was that difference between then was tiny, and there was more of a difference between 'good' brands and 'bad' brands than there was between types of displays

i can't really make any point with personal experience as i've only had one tv that 'failed' and i wouldn't say it was the least reliable. but rather it was the one that lasted longest because it had the best picture quality for it's time. it happened to be a rptv crt and i rode it out until the f8500. i've owned two plasmas, and a half dozen lcd's, and the only problems i've encountered have been some dead hdmi inputs on 'no-name' brand lcds(focus on the no-name, not the lcd part, as that's what is relevant).
I don't think obtaining information that would define which is actually more reliable is even remotely possible
Its really 99% speculation at this point based on some snippets of information

Interesting that you mention name brands etc
I have a Westinghouse 26" HDTV/DVD combination that is probably close to a decade old
For the first 7 years of its life I used it as a monitor and it was on almost 24/7....sometimes without any screensaver engaged
I haven't used it in a couple of years ...but it still works just fine

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post #89 of 215 Old 09-22-2017, 09:20 AM
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I can easily say that a VT60 is more reliable than a Samsung 8500 regardless of how many they made. VT60's simply do not fail. I can only find a few examples while the 8500 is time bomb waiting for it's power supply to go out.
How would you know that to be the case?...You would have to have the numbers on how many were sold to come up with any credible failure rate comparison

My F8500 didn't have a failed power supply and the gentleman that purchased mine had another as well and he hadn't had any power supply issues

As for the VT/ZT...I know for a fact reading in the forums a few years back that Panasonic replaced a few Tv's under warranty
In fact every Tv forum I have ever read here has had some failures of some sort

A moot point probably though since plasma has been discontinued for a few years.
I seriously doubt there are even many replacement parts available for these panels today
Maybe you know if there are replacement parts available?
And for something like burn in..I cant imagine there are any new replacement panels available

But getting back on topic

OLED fast falling pricing has killed the used plasma market..IMO

I don't see how a guy can expect even $1000 for a used plasma when you can buy a 65" 4K HDR OLED with a factory warranty for $2K
To me that's a no brainer

I learned that even the brightest plasma I could buy..the F8500..still washed out in my environment and LCD was my solution
However..my understanding is that the OLEDs are even brighter than the brightest plasma were

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post #90 of 215 Old 09-22-2017, 10:52 AM
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As for LED black levels - here is the review comparing my refurb demo tv from best buy, costing under $1000 versus a plasma...

http://hdtvsandmore.com/sonys-xbr-6...parison-review

Point being that black levels on the best LEDs are right up there with plasma already, and available for less than $1500. I question any plasma tv being that much money.
I certainly wouldn't buy a used plasma, or any other TV used, for that matter, but what's more insane is spending $8000 on any LED, whether it's full array backlit or not, when OLED is here. OLED prices are going to come down and more manufacturers are going to adopt this technology. For now, my VT60 looks perfect to me, it's great for gaming, and I have no screen burn. I look forward to 4K gaming, but I can be patient.
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